All right, so Colly and I have been having this debate recently...
Liza and Tate. The twin gym leaders in Mossdeep city from third gen. The... identical Twin gym leaders. As in, Identical Twins, as in, the same genetic information. As in, they should, logically, scientifically, and biologically, share the same sex. Such has been my assumption since Ruby and Sapphire and it is supported in the manga, in which Tate is female.
And yet... apparently that's wrong? In the anime (which I stopped watching long before they appeared, hence why this information is new to me), Tate is clearly male, and various other supplementary material supports this.
So what's the deal? Is he a girl, or what? What's going on?! I realize that by including as many options in the poll as I did is just begging for joke votes (but being transgender isn't something to joke about, I'll have you know!) but I didn't want to ignore any possibility. Let's discuss this in as much detail as possible, because I am SO.FREAKING.CONFUSED.
Let's discuss Liza and Tate
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Silver
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Let's discuss Liza and Tate
"Irregardless" and "Over exaggerated" are NEVER CORRECT EVER because they are redundant
Regardless means "without regard", and adding "ir" on the front actually makes it a double negative; exaggerate means "to overstate" so you're literally saying "over overstate."
Example: I can not exaggerate the importance of this fact enough, regardless of how often people ignore it.
Regardless means "without regard", and adding "ir" on the front actually makes it a double negative; exaggerate means "to overstate" so you're literally saying "over overstate."
Example: I can not exaggerate the importance of this fact enough, regardless of how often people ignore it.
Re: Let's discuss Liza and Tate
You're considering the anime to be a proper source? It doesn't even get type weaknesses and resistences correct half the time so you can't take everything it does as Canon (at least outside the anime version of the world).
But anyway... The games leave their gender ambiguous. I assumed they were both female, though the art for Tate could really go either way. I actually voted girl a minute ago but I just saw that, according to Bulbepedia, the only place where Tate is referred to as a girl is in a mistranslated version of the manga (the R/S arc hasn't gotten an official US release yet). So maybe he/she is a guy. Does it say anywhere that they're indentical twins as opposed to fraternal twins?
But anyway... The games leave their gender ambiguous. I assumed they were both female, though the art for Tate could really go either way. I actually voted girl a minute ago but I just saw that, according to Bulbepedia, the only place where Tate is referred to as a girl is in a mistranslated version of the manga (the R/S arc hasn't gotten an official US release yet). So maybe he/she is a guy. Does it say anywhere that they're indentical twins as opposed to fraternal twins?
Re: Let's discuss Liza and Tate
Lol@anime. Remember that Thunder Armor happened in that same gym.
But still, Tate's a guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKc54UHNbB4
0:08
Checkmate.
But still, Tate's a guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKc54UHNbB4
0:08
Checkmate.
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Silver
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Re: Let's discuss Liza and Tate
OBJECTION!
Was it like that in the Japanese version? It's very rare for the Japanese to use gender-specific pronouns! The translators are not a valid official source, and there's no guarantee that they fact checked first!
...And no, they've never been specifically referred to as identical. It's just that, y'know, they look completely identical. It's been stated that their own father can't tell them apart. That sounds like "identical twins" if I've ever heard of them.
Was it like that in the Japanese version? It's very rare for the Japanese to use gender-specific pronouns! The translators are not a valid official source, and there's no guarantee that they fact checked first!
...And no, they've never been specifically referred to as identical. It's just that, y'know, they look completely identical. It's been stated that their own father can't tell them apart. That sounds like "identical twins" if I've ever heard of them.
"Irregardless" and "Over exaggerated" are NEVER CORRECT EVER because they are redundant
Regardless means "without regard", and adding "ir" on the front actually makes it a double negative; exaggerate means "to overstate" so you're literally saying "over overstate."
Example: I can not exaggerate the importance of this fact enough, regardless of how often people ignore it.
Regardless means "without regard", and adding "ir" on the front actually makes it a double negative; exaggerate means "to overstate" so you're literally saying "over overstate."
Example: I can not exaggerate the importance of this fact enough, regardless of how often people ignore it.
Re: Let's discuss Liza and Tate
Silver has a point about the Japanese. Most likely a direct translation would be "Tate's pokémon" or "that person's pokémon". While I kind of want to support the translaters, we're talking a single line in the middle of a big battle tournament and Nintendo's translaters tend to be very hit or miss. Chances are they just used their best judgement, and Tate as a name sounds more masculine than feminine.
On the other side of the arguement, it is possible for fraternal twins to look very similar (they just don't have to). But, switching sides again, if their father can't tell them apart at their present age (as opposed to when they were babies), that would imply that, if they are of opposite genders, Tate would have to have a rather girlish build and Liza would have to be completely, er, flat. Those type of Chinese outfits usually aren't loose enough to cause any confusion in that regard.
On the other side of the arguement, it is possible for fraternal twins to look very similar (they just don't have to). But, switching sides again, if their father can't tell them apart at their present age (as opposed to when they were babies), that would imply that, if they are of opposite genders, Tate would have to have a rather girlish build and Liza would have to be completely, er, flat. Those type of Chinese outfits usually aren't loose enough to cause any confusion in that regard.
Re: Let's discuss Liza and Tate
Okay, let's look at the original Japanese then.
Their names first. Fuu... you know, I've only seen two anime characters name Fuu and both were female. I actually can't find much info on the actual name and it doesn't help that Pokemon only gives katakana names. Well... that didn't help me one bit.
Next up is pronouns. Liza uses "atashi" while Tate uses "boku". While I'm well aware that there is a wide amount of female characters that use "boku", it still helps lean Tate more towards the masculine end of this debate.
I'll be digging around to see if there's any more lines in the Japanese version that helps end this.
Also, if any of you know how to contact Sugimori, for the love of god don't ask him. He'll taunt us with them forever like he does with whatever is on Brendan's head (and let's not debate that).
Their names first. Fuu... you know, I've only seen two anime characters name Fuu and both were female. I actually can't find much info on the actual name and it doesn't help that Pokemon only gives katakana names. Well... that didn't help me one bit.
Next up is pronouns. Liza uses "atashi" while Tate uses "boku". While I'm well aware that there is a wide amount of female characters that use "boku", it still helps lean Tate more towards the masculine end of this debate.
I'll be digging around to see if there's any more lines in the Japanese version that helps end this.
Also, if any of you know how to contact Sugimori, for the love of god don't ask him. He'll taunt us with them forever like he does with whatever is on Brendan's head (and let's not debate that).
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Silver
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Re: Let's discuss Liza and Tate
Well, all right then. I am going to propose a theory.
Tate is a female to male transgender.
Now, I know this is something the Pokemon Company would never actually confirm, because it's "controversial" or whatever, but let's actually think about this. Japan loves crossdressing. That's no secret. It happens much to often in their media to overlook. These two are identical, and more importantly have the same physique, despite being of supposed opposite sexes. Tate is a fairly neutral name that a parent could feasibly name a daughter, but that wouldn't seem unusual on a boy, either. They both dress in gender neutral clothes to play up the twins angle.
But let's say that, while they were both born female, Tate identifies as male. It is not impossible for two identical twins to end up with different gender identities, as the primary determining condition is hormonal factors prior to birth. Constantly being mistaken for an identical twin could easily escalate the desire to be different and transition as well. So, they ARE both girls. It's just that Liza is all right with that and Tate isn't.
See? It all adds up.
Tate is a female to male transgender.
Now, I know this is something the Pokemon Company would never actually confirm, because it's "controversial" or whatever, but let's actually think about this. Japan loves crossdressing. That's no secret. It happens much to often in their media to overlook. These two are identical, and more importantly have the same physique, despite being of supposed opposite sexes. Tate is a fairly neutral name that a parent could feasibly name a daughter, but that wouldn't seem unusual on a boy, either. They both dress in gender neutral clothes to play up the twins angle.
But let's say that, while they were both born female, Tate identifies as male. It is not impossible for two identical twins to end up with different gender identities, as the primary determining condition is hormonal factors prior to birth. Constantly being mistaken for an identical twin could easily escalate the desire to be different and transition as well. So, they ARE both girls. It's just that Liza is all right with that and Tate isn't.
See? It all adds up.
"Irregardless" and "Over exaggerated" are NEVER CORRECT EVER because they are redundant
Regardless means "without regard", and adding "ir" on the front actually makes it a double negative; exaggerate means "to overstate" so you're literally saying "over overstate."
Example: I can not exaggerate the importance of this fact enough, regardless of how often people ignore it.
Regardless means "without regard", and adding "ir" on the front actually makes it a double negative; exaggerate means "to overstate" so you're literally saying "over overstate."
Example: I can not exaggerate the importance of this fact enough, regardless of how often people ignore it.
Re: Let's discuss Liza and Tate
The opposite can apply just as well, can't it?
Re: Let's discuss Liza and Tate
If you want to talk about transgender, forget about Tate and Liza. You should be looking at Sabrina's female Mr. Mime.
Re: Let's discuss Liza and Tate
Fantina has always scared me. Compared to most other female gym leaders, she really does have a masculine looking face.
There's also the "female" trainer from BW2 who Nintendo once labeled as a guy at one point.
Anyone else worthy of mention?
There's also the "female" trainer from BW2 who Nintendo once labeled as a guy at one point.
Anyone else worthy of mention?
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Silver
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Re: Let's discuss Liza and Tate
...Tucker?
"Irregardless" and "Over exaggerated" are NEVER CORRECT EVER because they are redundant
Regardless means "without regard", and adding "ir" on the front actually makes it a double negative; exaggerate means "to overstate" so you're literally saying "over overstate."
Example: I can not exaggerate the importance of this fact enough, regardless of how often people ignore it.
Regardless means "without regard", and adding "ir" on the front actually makes it a double negative; exaggerate means "to overstate" so you're literally saying "over overstate."
Example: I can not exaggerate the importance of this fact enough, regardless of how often people ignore it.
Re: Let's discuss Liza and Tate
I want to say he's leaning more towards flamboyently gay than anything else...