When They Cry Plot Discussion

[Josiah]

Oh, I completely forgot the numbers. Are they important or just a red herring? There really isn't enough information yet to tell.

And now it pieces together.
Why are the two rooms separate? Bern and Lambda aren't the players. They're just observing the game with some little interaction.

Lambda isn't a player, despite how she was the one who actually arranged the whole thing, but Bern is. Though I suppose the Beato/Bern game and be can be considered a sort of meta game of the Beato/Battler game.

Virgilia is who she is. She was, indeed, involved with the creation of the Golden Witch Beatrice.

I was fine with her right up until she tried to force Battle to sign the paper at the end. That seemed out of line with the good character she had displayed prior to that point.

A bit of both granted Beato magic.
It is implied (in some extra material) that Lambda was the one who granted Takano's wish to become god back when she was a child.

As in Lambda was around before Takano or that their relationship was more like Eva and her witch? The latter makes more sense in my opinion. I suppose for Beato it could be that Virgilia gave her her magic and title but Lambda was her backer. Though it would seem strange if Virgilia would pass down her title and power without backing Beato. Or does that sort of relationship disqualify her as a backer? For that matter, Beato was considerably weaker after passing her power to EVA-Beatrice but, going from their battle, Virgilia was even more powerful than Beato despite passing on her power and title long ago. That's rather odd. Though, considering all that happened, I suppose Beato could have very easily been faking her weakness.

I think the thing to discuss overall is what is your idea of how magic and witches are born? This part is really vital to the final solution.

At this point I know the origins (more or less) of Bern, Lambda, Beato, EVA-Beatrice, and Ange. That leads me to the following conclusion on how witches are born. First, you need a human (female only?). That person needs to have an extremely strong and long lasting desire and a healthy dose of mental trauma is quite possibly a requirement as well. In Bern's case, it was Rika desire to find a way to prevent herself and everyone she knew from being killed. Takano wanted to become a god and prove her grandfather's research which meant a lot to her because of all he had done for her. Eva was desperate to prove herself to her father and brother. And Ange wanted to save her family and avoid her horrible life with Eva. Beato is harder since I don't have as much information on her but if the Beatrice that Rosa met was a human and not a humonculous, then it was probably a desite to get out of the little mansion where she had been trapped for her entire life.
The person in question might also need a some inborn magical ability (Rika and Beato definately did and Eva claimed to) but I can't say that for sure. With all those conditions in place they can give birth to a witch. Though, without training and/or backing from another witch their powers might be somewhat limited (Eva-Beatrice was a witch before gaining Beato's power, just not a very strong one). Though that raises the question of why they need another witch's backing. Is there some sort of governing body of witches?

On a side note, taking all that I've learned into account, it seems highly likely that Hanyu is the witch of the human who came to be known as Oyashirosama.

[SuzuTitor]

The numbers, while they aren't a red herring, you shouldn't forget about them. Just don't think to hard about them.

[SuzuTitor]

Well, I just finally completed Umineko 8, so now I can properly judge this series now.
Overall, it was a really good ride, especially at the start. Bit shaky near the final books, and I'm a bit unsure what to think of the end.
Though Silver and I have to question, is there really anyway to satisfy Ryukishi07 as a fan? Pretty much, from what can be interpreted, you shouldn't bother reading it if you aren't going to think about it or if you think about it too much you'll ruin the experience.

[Josiah]

I'm currently somewhere in chapter 4. After the first twilight but before the second. Lack of time and the length of the chapter has slowed me down a bit but I'm hoping to finish it soon. So far though, I have to say that it does a great job of making things more confusing.

[Josiah]

I finally finished 4! It had to be twice as long as the others. Where to begin...

Shannon and Kannon
They can remember the events of past games?!? Why the heck haven't they actually used that to their advantage? And how come no one else on the game board (sans Beato and her entourage) can do so?

Kinzo
First he appears as an awesome summoner, even though his magic power is supposed to be pretty lousy, and goes around killing everyone. Then he's burned (again) by Beato who had previously made statements about how she was under his control. And then we finally find out that he's been dead at the start of every game so far. Battler's theory of a Person X inheriting Kinzo's name and taking over for him would have worked well, except that Beato later shot it down with red truth. But how does that account for his appearances in the games? More magical trickery that's just there to obscur the real events? Or, if you define the start of the game as shortly before the first twilight, that means he could have been alive for most of the first day. Which would at least account for his appearances in the first three games, though not the fourth. I suppose him being dead also means he can't be the main villian, which is too bad since that would have explained a lot.

Magic
Virgilia's two worlds theory still seems to hold up, regardless of what Kyrie and the others saw.

Timeline Problems
The timeline seemed to get a bit muddled when they were jumping back and forth between Ange and Maria's stories. It seems that Ange denied magic shortly before Rosa's big rampage (and wow, she was a far worse mother than I thought), which helped contribute to Maria's breakdown. It kind of made it look that that was when Ange quite practicing magic and nearly destroyed the Seven Stakes when they could stop the girls bullying her. Thing is, Agne would have been way to young at the time. That even could only have happened long after Maria's death which means that Agne either denied magic twice (one as a young child) or was actually communicating with Maria from the past. The first explanation there makes the most sense, but the way the events would spliced together made it a bit unclear.

Maria
I'm beginning to think that she may be acting as accomplice in some of the murders. Not only does she usually survive till the end (or almost the end), but the destruction of Sakutaro set her down a rather dark path and she really seems to believe that it's ok if everyone dies since they'll be revived in the Golden Land. The true villian could be playing on that to manipulate her into helping.

The Seven Stakes
So they're nice and friendly now? At least as long as you don't need anyone murdered? It's getting harder and harder to understand the personalities of any of the magic characters (see my later comments on Beato and Virgilia)... Also, they were used very inconsistently throughout the fourth game. Not all the murders that should have been carried out by the stakes were and the ones that were didn't always seem to pierce the right body part. Admittedly, Kinzo's involvement through the entire 4th game a bit out of whack...except that he couldn't have been involved since he was dead...

EVA Beatrice
She made a brief return in Agne's story and Agne equated her to a dark force that controlled mulitple people, not just Eva. Could she be a completely seperate witch who had pretended to be Eva's witch as part of some evil plan? Is she the true villian? Probably not...

Virgilia
Despite her tip text still listing her as a good witch, her actions in the end of the third game and the entire fourth game don't back that up. She doesn't seem to care about stopping Beato anymore and actively participated in things this time around, though in a very incompetent way (the Vigilia and a Goat vs. Krauss battle was hillariously bad). She's shown so little consistency across the two games that I really don't understand her personality or goals in the least.

Battler's Parents
Battler dissapointed me yet again by breaking down right after discovering he wasn't Asamu's son. It was clear that Beato's attack was fishy, as she was going after his link to Asamu, who wasn't a member of the Ushiromiya family by blood, but Battler didn't even think to try saying he was Rudolph's son or Kinzo's grandson in red. The whole thing does beg the question of who his real mother is and why it was covered up. On a side note, the fact that Battler can use red truth leads credence to my old comment about the Battler facing Beatrice being Battler's witch of sorts.

Battler's Sin
Beato said it wasn't between the two of them (though I suppose that doesn't neccessarily rule out something between him and human Beatrice) and it didn't have anything to do with how his leaving the family affected his relationship with his parents. All I can think of is that he was the one who told young Agne magic didn't exist, triggering her fight with Maria, but Beato said this sin took place six years ago, so the timing doesn't match up. Perhaps his leaving hurt another family member (Maria? Jessica?) so much (or deprived them of needed support) that they started down a path that led to them either becomming or aiding the true villian.

The Number of People
So there's only 17 people on the island. While I'd have to go back and check, I suppose that means that Beato's previous red truth statements didn't say there were 18 people, but that there was no more than 18 people. She also ruled out false corpses, which destroys most of the best explanations.

All the Murders
Most of the murders in the fourth game weren't all that mysterious. The only real issues are Ghoda and Kumasawa's deaths (which could be explained if one of them killed the other, tied the ropes, then committed suicide, which I don't believe was ever ruled out) and Battler's death. There's also the matter of Jessica's phone call, but I'll throw that together with Kyrie's phone call under people seeing magic due to the two worlds theory. In the end, Battler's blue truths accounted for nearly everything, despite some occasionally ridiculous logic (like stomach bomb trap X). Except that Lambda later destroyed most/all of them with red truth. I've got to say, at this point nearly every reasonable explanation for the more mysterious killings seems to have been ruled out.

Beato
What was up with her this game? She starts out her usual self but then things get strange. She gets revived in the game, supposedly as a servant of Kinzo (and makes some refernences to him beating and raping her). Then game piece (human?) Beatrice gets extremely depressed when Battler fails to remember his sin and actually talks with her equally upset counterpart (Battler's opponent, witch Beato). There being two of them seems to indicate that Beato is a witch of the human Beatrice. Perhaps the one that Rosa unintentionally led to her death, except that human Beatrice has now appeared on the game board twice (maybe that Beatrice had a daughter?). But anyway, even though this was the first time it was ever brought up, Beato is so upset at Battler's failure to remember his sin that she goes into a serious slump and tries to end the game entirely. Considering that she very nearly erased Battler from existence and later had to be chained to her chair by Lambda, it seems highly unlikely that she was faking. But why did it affect her so strongly?
Moving on, Beato is forced back into the game and keeps jumping back and forth between depressed and her usual crazy evil. Then in the almost final showdown with Battler, she very nearly loses twice even though, as shown by Lambda, she could have destroyed most of his arguements. Going off of her thoughts and words, it seemed like she wanted to lose. Either because of Battler forgetting his sin or because she had come to the conclusion that she has no change of victory (which seems to be the case as both Bern and Lambda said so, though Beato shouldn't know that). But Lambda later insisted that it was all an act, designed to set Battler up for a big fall in the next game. Beato's thoughts seem to indicate that she actually did want to lose, but her thoughts weren't all that reliable in the last game so I'm not especially inclined to trust her. Admittedly, until the end I was expecting her to suddenly shake off Battler's attacks and completely turn the tables on him. Guess I'll find out for sure next game. Either way though, Beato's rapid personality shifts (the kind good witch when she's with Maria, the sadistic killer throughout much of the game, the lonely depressed woman for part of this game, etc.) make it really had for me to get any sort of solid read on her character.

Gotta say, I'm glad the answer arcs are up next, even though I suspect I'll have to wait until 7 or so before getting answers to any big questions.

[Silver]

Shannon and Kannon
Think about what you wrote there. No, I mean really think about it.

Kinzo
I believe you get the full explanation on Kinzo in Book 5. There's a lot of Red about him that might seem off, but... if someone were deliberately lying... that's different than mistaking the identity of Kinzo.

Timeline Problem
It's not a timeline problem at all. Remember that Ange is reading Maria's diary and that's how Maria talks to her. It's not like she actually sees or hears Maria - it's what Ange is reading in that diary. Presumably, that diary follows the events of Maria's life in chronological order. What this means is that Ange got to the point in that book where Maria wrote about Rosa's anger. That's what made her deny magic a second time.

Maria
She... definitely is a strange case. Remember that she's just a kid. Maybe a kid with a lot of family issues, no social skills, and a creepy obsession with the occult, but still just a kid. Though... so were Satoko, Rika, and Rena... so I guess that argument doesn't work when talking about Ryukishi. But there's really no mysterious drug Pikopikoporo (or whatever) this time! Nothing like that is making Maria go psychotic! She's just naive and overly trusting... and probably a little messed up in the head to begin with.

Seven Stakes
It's not like they were ever evil. They're servants. Furniture.

Evatrice
I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be symbolism or something. Since in Ange's mind, Eva is the embodiment of pure evil, she;s just blaming her for everything that goes wrong in her life. Also, as soon as one of her crazy evil aunts dies, another immediately comes after her? Possession doesn't even seem that far off. Eva just hadn't had enough of torturing her yet, so she came back to finish up. ...No, that's not true at all, but it's probably what Ange was thinking at the time.

Virgilia
>2012
>Still thinking Beato is evil

I seriously hope you guys don't do this.

Ergh... I thought you'd get this by now... Virgilia the piece =/= Virgilia in the Metaworld. There's the game board, right? That's where all the murders take place. And then there's that higher plane where the red truth vs. blue truth battles happen. The fandom has dubbed that to be the Metaworld. Beatrice in the Metaworld controls the pieces on the game board. That's not their real personality, that's just Beato showing a bit of flair for the dramatic.

Battler's Parents
Come on now, if someone suddenly told you that the person you thought was your mother - took care of you your whole life, and died not too long ago - was not actually related to you at all, wouldn't you be pretty upset? Really, you left the family for six years because your father betrayed her... and she actually wasn't involved anyway. The grandparents you lived with all that time weren't even your grandparents. I can't blame him for freaking out there... And if Asumu isn't his mother, it's only natural for him to think that Rudolf isn't his father. Maybe he's just a baby they picked up from the Fukuin house. He doesn't know about how much of a pimp Rudolf was back in the day. But as a reader, I believe you do...

Battler's Sin
You're pretty close here. It was, indeed, his leaving that hurt someone else to the point of going evil. I... don't want to say anything on the front of human Beatrice. But if you don't get it now, you won't until Book 7. But Book 7 is where you get all the answers. Except for the Battler's Parents thing, that one doesn't come until Book 8. And it's pretty much the only reason to read Book 8. Oh, but when you do? Answer all the riddles wrong. Seriously, it makes the last scenes so much better. Also makes you glad that Kinzo isn't your Grandfather.

The Number of People
Aye. She only ever said no more than 18 and that there was no 19th person. And... what was the exact red on this one? Wasn't it "no more than 17?" You're gonna love Book 6.

All of the Murders
Gonna leave this one to Colly.

...But small bombs were never shot down! Remember that small bombs is still a valid blue! And who prepared the food? Gohda. Yep, I just totally ruined the ending for you: Gohda is the culprit!

...

Before Book 4 that theory was my favorite...

Beato
There are a lot of different Beatrices at this point. Remember that player Beatrice and Piece Beatrice are completely different entities. The one that appears on the game board is more like the "idea" of Beatrice, the witch that lives in the forest. But she's just a piece. The one that Battler deals with in the Metaworld is the real Beatrice, the one with the actual personality. Gonna give you a spoiler: Lambda's bluffing. How the hell would she know? She's not involved in Beato's personal life; she's just trying to trip Battler up so the game will go on longer.

[SuzuTitor]

You're on the right track with some of this, I'll tell you that. Episode 4 was all about explaining exactly what is magic, and it explained it much better than Episode 3 did.

I want to see if you got the hang of this, so let's have a little test. Ryukishi claimed that one can solve this by EP4. By this point, many have come up with several theories and culprits. I want to see yours. If you want me to repeat reds for specific murders, or if any theory contradicts with a red truth from EP2-4, I'll fetch them for you.

First game, first twilight. Six corpses in the gardening shed.
First game, second twilight. Two corpses are close together in a closed room protected by a chain.
First game, fourth twilight. The old Head from the closed room study, confined in a scorching furnace.
First game, fifth twilight. The last moments of the sacrificed boy with a stake in his chest.
First game, sixth, seventh, and eighth twilights. Three corpses lying in a closed room of the singing girl.

Second game, first twilight. Six with their stomachs split in the closed room chapel.
Second game, second twilight. The corpses of the two who are close are not close.
Second game, fourth, fifth, and sixth twilights. In Natsuhi's closed room, none are left alive.
Second game, seventh and eighth twilights. The two sliced to death by the red-eyed phantom.

Third game, first twilight. Six corpses connected by the linked closed rooms.
Third game, second twilight. The corpses of mother and child lay together in the rose garden.
Third game, fourth, fifth, and sixth twilights. Three corpses lying in the mansion.
Third game, seventh and eighth twilights. The corpses of husband and wife lay exposed under the arbor.

Fourth game, first twilight. A massacring storm sweeps through the dining hall.
Fourth game, second twilight. The two young ones face their trials and pass away together.
Fourth game, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth twilights. None of the runaways are left alive.
Fourth game, ninth twilight. And none shall be left alive.

And the final question. Who is Beatrice?

[Josiah]

Shannon and Kannon
Think about what you wrote there. No, I mean really think about it.

The obvious conclusion to draw would be that Shanon and Kanon aren't human, and play by similar rules to all the other supernatural entities that appear on the board. And they never take advantage of the fact because they still consider themselves furniture.

Evatrice
I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be symbolism or something. Since in Ange's mind, Eva is the embodiment of pure evil, she;s just blaming her for everything that goes wrong in her life. Also, as soon as one of her crazy evil aunts dies, another immediately comes after her? Possession doesn't even seem that far off. Eva just hadn't had enough of torturing her yet, so she came back to finish up. ...No, that's not true at all, but it's probably what Ange was thinking at the time.

Probably, yeah. It's hard to tell exactly what happened at the end there with Agne was truth and what was in her mind. Especially considering that she's listed as having died at that point in time.

Ergh... I thought you'd get this by now... Virgilia the piece =/= Virgilia in the Metaworld. There's the game board, right? That's where all the murders take place. And then there's that higher plane where the red truth vs. blue truth battles happen. The fandom has dubbed that to be the Metaworld. Beatrice in the Metaworld controls the pieces on the game board. That's not their real personality, that's just Beato showing a bit of flair for the dramatic.

I get the difference between the different worlds, but it never seemed to me like Beato can control all the pieces. And supernatural entities (Beato, Ronove, etc.) seem to be able to shift between the game board and the tea room at will so I considered the Virgilia that helped Battler in the tea room and the one who helped Beato at the end of game three and throughout game 4 to be the same. If the Virgilia on the gameboard (or at least the one on the board after her big fight with Beato) is a replica of whatever controlled by Beato, that explains the personality switch (though not why she hasn't returned to the tea room since late in game 3).

Battler's Parents
Come on now, if someone suddenly told you that the person you thought was your mother - took care of you your whole life, and died not too long ago - was not actually related to you at all, wouldn't you be pretty upset? Really, you left the family for six years because your father betrayed her... and she actually wasn't involved anyway. The grandparents you lived with all that time weren't even your grandparents. I can't blame him for freaking out there...

To a point, yeah. But I'd think the first thing he'd try to do was regain some sense of self by at least trying the red truth for his father.

The Number of People
Aye. She only ever said no more than 18 and that there was no 19th person. And... what was the exact red on this one? Wasn't it "no more than 17?" You're gonna love Book 6.

Er... Please don't tell me there's really less than 17 people. I mean, I can see Kinzo's presence being faked but I don't think that'd work with any other character.

Beato
There are a lot of different Beatrices at this point. Remember that player Beatrice and Piece Beatrice are completely different entities. The one that appears on the game board is more like the "idea" of Beatrice, the witch that lives in the forest. But she's just a piece. The one that Battler deals with in the Metaworld is the real Beatrice, the one with the actual personality. Gonna give you a spoiler: Lambda's bluffing. How the hell would she know? She's not involved in Beato's personal life; she's just trying to trip Battler up so the game will go on longer.

Going off of the way things were handled in previous games, it seemed more to me like Beato could just jump back and forth between the board and the tea room and play both roles, the exception being her human self who appeared in games 2 and 4. Sounds like I'll need to adjust my reasoning on how that works... As for Lambda, I realize she could be lying there (she was talking to Bern though, not Battler), but I'm not completely discounting her claim either.

First game, first twilight. Six corpses in the gardening shed.
The killer poisoned or shot the six and either had a key to the shed or stole one.

First game, second twilight. Two corpses are close together in a closed room protected by a chain.
I'm tempted to stay someone killed them, locked the room, and hid under the bed like Battler suggested. But I don't remember whether or not everyone's wherabouts were accounted for at that point. If they were, I'll need a different theory.

First game, fourth twilight. The old Head from the closed room study, confined in a scorching furnace.
Kinzo was killed early on when everyone's whereabouts were in question. He could have been lured out of his room or the killer may have taken the key. After that, killing him and sticking him in the boiler wouldn't be that hard.

First game, fifth twilight. The last moments of the sacrificed boy with a stake in his chest.
A trap or accident makes the most sense but here Lambda's red truth poses a problem. According to her, he was murdered yet everyone's whereabouts seem to be accounted for unless someone faked their own death earlier, which Beato denied. I'd need to review the red truths for this one.

First game, sixth, seventh, and eighth twilights. Three corpses lying in a closed room of the singing girl.
Did that room fall under Beato's defacto locked room definition? Well, all four people in that room were declared, in red, not to have been the killer. I'm going to say that Maria was working with the killer. She opened the door, the killer did his thing, then Maria locked the door again after he left.

Going off all that, if there's only one killer for the first game, he/she is one of the 17, and faked deaths and body doubles aren't used, I'd probably finger...Jessica. I mean, the only people who survived are the four cousins. Battler is out and Maria was declared not to have killed the last three. That leaves George and Jessica and going off personality, knowledge of the mansion, and ability to impersonate Beatrice, that leaves only Jessica.


Second game, first twilight. Six with their stomachs split in the closed room chapel.
Once again, poison or a gun explains the killings easily enough. As for how they got in the chapel... What were the red truths related to the chapel and its key?

Second game, second twilight. The corpses of the two who are close are not close.
A gun and a master key can easily solve this. Beato never said the servants always had control of their respective keys. And that's assuming a servent wasn't the killer.

Second game, fourth, fifth, and sixth twilights. In Natsuhi's closed room, none are left alive.
Same as above.

Second game, seventh and eighth twilights. The two sliced to death by the red-eyed phantom.
The question here isn't how they were killed but who did it. I believe red truth stated that Kanon was dead and they wouldn't have mistaken someone disguised as Kanon. That would mean Kanon being the killer was either a magic illusion or a lie concocted by Genji to protect the real killer.

If Kinzo wasn't declared as being dead, he'd be the number one suspect here. Rosa is suspicious as well, though she has an allibi for some of the murders. That leaves...Genji?


Third game, first twilight. Six corpses connected by the linked closed rooms.
I'm pretty sure Battler solved this when he said that the killer simply made sure to be the first person to examine one of the bodies and pretended to find the master key.

Third game, second twilight. The corpses of mother and child lay together in the rose garden.
Eva did it, with Hideyoshi covering for her.

Third game, fourth, fifth, and sixth twilights. Three corpses lying in the mansion.
Eva still works, though I do have trouble seeing her killer George.

Third game, seventh and eighth twilights. The corpses of husband and wife lay exposed under the arbor.
Really, Eva as the killer solves all of these pretty easily. All except for Nanjo's killing... Did Lambda shoot down Battler's last theory for that one, about one person who they thought was dead killed Nanjo and then died?

Fourth game, first twilight. A massacring storm sweeps through the dining hall.
Someone walks in with a shot gun. Poison darts or, more likely, a knock out gas grenade could explain how the others got to the cell. Though I wouldn't completely put it past Kinzo to design a dining hall with lots of crazy pitfalls.

Fourth game, second twilight. The two young ones face their trials and pass away together.
The only weird thing here is Jessica's phone call. If you discount what she said while on the phone, neither murder poses any real problems. An alternate theory is that Jessica fought George (as part of their test) and was fatally wounded in the battle. She then escaped to her room and made the call but the killer showed up soon after to bash her head in.

Fourth game, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth twilights. None of the runaways are left alive.
Once again, it's not a matter of how they were killed but who did it...

The main question here is who was able to kill everyone else. Allibis are the issue here. Perhaps the killer gased everyone in the dining room, locked himself in the cell, pretended to be a victem, and implanted the Kinzo massacre story in everyone's heads when they work up. Alternately, it could have been someone who was in the guest house but not being watched by the others.

Fourth game, ninth twilight. And none shall be left alive.
I'd need to review the red truth related to this one. There really isn't much to work with though.

And the final question. Who is Beatrice?
As in who is she as a person (Kinzo's mistress, illigitimate daughter, etc.)? Or which of the 17 people is filling the role of Beatrice? If it's the later, my top pick go to Jessica (she looks the most like Beatrice and I can pin some murders on her) though I could build partial cases for Eva, Rosa, Kumasawa, and Ghoda.

[Josiah]

Finished #5 nearly a week ago but didn't get around to posting. But, now that I'm about to start the next one, I really should do that...

The Game
This episode did make clear that everyone on the board (supernatural beings included) is a piece and not the same person, which I thought was a bit unclear before.

The Mysteries
I get the feeling that, if I replayed all the games, I could probably figure out a lot of the murders but I don't have time for that...

Beato
I kind of miss the evil Beato... But it looks like she's not turning evil again, or maybe even returning for that matter. Still not sure what she wanted Battler to remember. No matter how you look at it, he couldn't have been alive when Beatrice died which means if he had any sort of interaction with a human Beatrice it would have to be someone else such as Jessica or Kyrie. I'm not entirely sure how well Beato's two sides, the cruel evil one and the lonely depressed one fit together, but hopefully her backstory will clear things up.

Kinzo
This episode explained things pretty well...except for his killing spreed in game 4 and his body in various other games. The body could have been a fake (though I believe it was statedly in red before that no body doubles are present) or his real body though I can't imagine they kept his real body around for over a year just in case. The murder speed is problamatic because it was stated that no one would mistake someone else for Kinzo.

Bern and Erika
I really wanted to like them...but they did a great job of making that imposible. And I thought Bern was supposed to be the good witch...

Lambda
If her goal was the keep the game going forever, shouldn't she have countered Bern more during the trial? As the game master, she could have used red truth to break down Erika's theories herself.

The Murders
In this episode Battler, Natsuhi, and Krauss were cleared via red truth. There wasn't anything overly mysterious after Battler expanded the time of death. It seems like everyone faked being dead (or were knocked out or something) then lured to another area and killed. The who and why though are still a mystery. Eva can't be the killer in every game at this point I know so much about most of the characters' backgrounds that it's hard to suspect them. Kyrie is still a bit of a mystery and she's smart enough to pull off something like this, but she has a tendency to get killed early on.

Battler
Looks like I was more or less right about him being Battler's witch. Thing is though, if he knows the truth of everything now, shouldn't the game be over? Why is he playing another game against Erika? Doesn't that mean he'll have to murder everyone again? That really doesn't seem like him. And what exactly is he fighting for now. Even though there's a lot of mysteries, Beato seems to have been defeated. Even if Erika is a rather nasty person, they have the same goal of disproving the illusion of the witch. How can they compete?
On a side note, could Kyrie be his real mother? Seems inconsistant with a few details, but who else could it be?

The Epitaph
Did they really have to skip over the solution again? Seriously? I have a feeling that solving it without playing the game in the original Japanese is nearly impossible.

I suppose that's it for now. Off to episode 6!

[SuzuTitor]

The Mysteries
Rereading Umineko definitely is a great experience like rereading a mystery book.

Beato
Her identity will be revealed and explained in EP6. Her backstory will be revealed in Book 6.
I will say this, Battler DID indeed interact with Beato in some way 6 years prior to the Rokkenjima disaster.

Kinzo
Oh now, I think you're over thinking this part. While it's true that nobody will mistake anyone else for Kinzo, there was never any red stating that Kinzo was the one who murdered in the dining hall.

Bern and Erika
After Beato's "Wind and Sun" strategy in EP3, I'm surprised you still trusted Bern.
As for Erika, I felt the same way at the start. Then, somehow, she ended up being one of my favorites in the end.

Lambda
Lambda is on a higher level than Erika, thus it'd probably seem too cheap if she smashed Erika's theories. She loves to see these pieces struggle, and the way Bern plays with them.


The Murders
Boy the trial made this one tough. To tell you the truth, I haven't actually solved this one yet, but I'll give it a reread sometime to see if it's actually possible to solve. Faked deaths are a nice thought though, and may be a key to a lot of earlier mysteries.

Battler
The next game is to prove that he understands Beato. As for Battler's mother, Kyrie is indeed a possibility. Hell, Silver and I theorized a crazy baby mix-up between many of the parents once, which included Battler, Jessica, and the baby that was pushed off the cliff.

The Epitaph
By literal translation it was impossible. However Witch Hunt crafted it in a way that it can be solved without knowing the original Japanese wording. It's really not worth solving though.

I'm rather surprised you did not mention the child from 19 years ago. That child is actually a really huge hint there.

[Josiah]

Kinzo
Oh now, I think you're over thinking this part. While it's true that nobody will mistake anyone else for Kinzo, there was never any red stating that Kinzo was the one who murdered in the dining hall.

It wasn't stated in red, but some of the people who were there said it was him. Which means they either mistook someone else for him or were lying.

Bern and Erika
After Beato's "Wind and Sun" strategy in EP3, I'm surprised you still trusted Bern.
As for Erika, I felt the same way at the start. Then, somehow, she ended up being one of my favorites in the end.

I haven't entirely trusted Bern since Ange's death, but episode 5 sealed it.

Battler
The next game is to prove that he understands Beato. As for Battler's mother, Kyrie is indeed a possibility. Hell, Silver and I theorized a crazy baby mix-up between many of the parents once, which included Battler, Jessica, and the baby that was pushed off the cliff.

Something like that crossed my mind too. The problem is that the child from 19 years ago is too have been swapped with Jessica or Battler.

I'm rather surprised you did not mention the child from 19 years ago. That child is actually a really huge hint there

I did think about it. The problem is the ages. He's too old to be one of the cousins and too young to be one of the adults or directly connected to the Beato who Rosa saw die. I'm having a tough time seeing how he fits in.

[Silver]

It wasn't stated in red, but some of the people who were there said it was him. Which means they either mistook someone else for him or were lying.

It was stated in red that no one would "mistake" the identity of Kinzo, though. But what if someone legitimately didn't know the identity of Kinzo, but was told by someone else that it was him? Or what if a servant's boss told them to go spreading around that Kinzo had been seen, just to prove that he was still alive?

Something like that crossed my mind too. The problem is that the child from 19 years ago is too have been swapped with Jessica or Battler.

I'm assuming you mean "too old". And is he? One year isn't a big gap. Since we don't know birth dates, it could easily be less than one year. And if someone just happened to miraculously find this baby, it's not like they'd know how old it was.

I did think about it. The problem is the ages. He's too old to be one of the cousins and too young to be one of the adults or directly connected to the Beato who Rosa saw die. I'm having a tough time seeing how he fits in.

Battler and Jessica are not the only eighteen-year-olds on the island. You're overlooking the obvious.

[Josiah]

Isn't Jessica 16? If anyone else is around 18, it'd be Shannon, but I can't imagine her being involved with the killings.

[Josiah]

It took a while, but I finished #6. Now that the answers are so close, and it's summer break, I expect to work through #7 a good bit faster...

The True Villian
It was Purupurupikoman! I knew it all along!

Erika
You know, I didn't think I could dislike her much more than I already did but wow... Killing the people playing dead, even though she knew they were alive, just to give herself an easier case to solve? Even they were technically pieces, that's really messed up.

The 6th Game
On that note, I was rather glad to find out how Battle had planned the game to go, since I was having trouble seeing him as someone who could kill him family, even as part of the game.

The Killer
Well, Erika did it in one game, Eva in another... Beyond that, I really don't know. It seems extremely difficult, if not impossible, for the same person to have been the killer across all games. There could be someone manipulating others and pulling the strings, like Takano, but with the possible exception of Kinzo having set something up before his death, I really can't say who that might be.

Shannon and Kannon
Part way through the love battle, I realized that if Shannon and Kannon were one person with a split personality, that would explain why their loves are mutally exclusive (which otherwise makes very little sense). It would also neatly explain Kannon's escape from the locked room (he was never in it) and dissapearance from the closet (Beato never said that no one was in the closet, just that he wasn't). Not to mention Beato's end of game declaration that there's only 17 people, counting Erika But that brings up a ton of other problems. Shannon would presumably be the real personality (she's been around longer, has spent a lot of time with George, and won the duel) but unless she's constantly running around changing her clothes and hair, everyone would know the truth (and just be humoring her, for some reason), which would make events such as Jessica falling in love with Kannon and taking him to her school festival really really weird. Alternately, Kannon could be real and Shannon the alternate...but that'd make George a gay pedophile. I could make a case that Kannon is like Kinzo...except that everyone would have to be in on it. Then there's the fact that they die at seperate times in most of the games. Which could mean fake deaths or a whole lot of people pretending that the other was still alive (ala Kinzo). Anyway, I rather hope I'll wrong about all this, since I just can't think of any good way to explain all the issues having them as the same person would cause.

Losing Another Person
Thing is, if Shannon and Kannon aren't the same person, there aren't many other ways to reduce the number of people. I suppose Kannon and George could be the same person, but that would cause at least as many problems.

The Murders
Fake deaths and confusion about names and times of death could solve many of the ones I've still having problems with. Though I think the red truth blocks that for some.

Beato
Never thought I'd be glad to see the original Beato back... Even if he knows the truth, Battler's a pretty strange guy if he can forgive everything she did... But anyway, on to her identity. Seems she's a combination of Rokkenjima's witch legend, and a witch created by another person to be an ideal companion for Battler. The question is, whose witch? My current top choices: Jessica (maybe she had a crush on him way back), Rudolph (wanting someone to care for his son even though they didn't get along), Kyrie (I'm half convinced that Battler is actually her supposedly stillborn son), Shannon (maybe she liked Battler before George), or maybe a young Ange (she really likes her brother).

Featherine
Are there any witches you can trust not to be rather evil? It's looking like no. I'm still rather unsure whether or not her human form was real or not, though I suppose it doesn't matter.

Ange's Betrayel
Finding out that Ange was betrayed by her protectors explains how the bad guys got the drop on her so easily, but I can't see it having any importance to the main story.

[SuzuTitor]

As much as I hated EP6, it really did help give major hints. Remember that this was supposed to be Battler's way of explaining Beato's games. Since we see fake deaths in his game, it's safe to assume Beato used the same trick as well for the murders that one can't easily figure out.
The other major hint was the confirmation of the ShKanon theory.


As for the Ange/Featherine bit, just feel free to ignore it. That whole part never plays later on in the plot. Ryukishi didn't even do a good job keeping track of his layers either. I guess that's an effect of his editor's untimely death.


With this knowledge now, the howdunnits should be a lot easier for you now. EP7 delivers the last hints you'll get, and then we can be on equal footing when solving these mysteries.